Yugoloths created by Asmodeus?

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elderbrain
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Yugoloths created by Asmodeus?

Been reading reviews of the monster entries in the new Monster Manual, and apparently the Yugoloth entries has some text claiming that Asmodeus created the 'Loths with the aid of a covey of hags (Night hags?)! Obviously a major departure from Planescape canon... although one could always posit that it's a lie spread by Asmodeus. Maybe he discovered that the Yugoloths were responsible for the creation of the Batezzu and Tannari, and decided to pre-empt them revealing that fact by claiming HE made THEM! Then again, what if he's NOT lying, and the 'Loths have been played for fools and were part of his master plan all along...?

Quickleaf
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Strange.

Strange.

Just by a comparison of CRs it doesn't make much sense. Night hags are only CR 5, while the lowest Mezzoloth Yugoloth is also CR 5 and the greatest Ultraloth is CR 13. Normally in D&D secret progenitor races tend to be MORE powerful than the least of their creations, right?

Also, Asmodeus is usually Lawful evil, yes? So there's conflict of alignment too.

Also what implications does this have for Apomps and the Gehreleths? Is Apomps now some ancient hag who defied her sisters?

Hopefully we're only getting a half-picture, and the actual MM will have a more cohesive well-though out backstory that doesn't appear as haphazard as this bit of news makes it appear.

Jem
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Odd.

I would be shocked if this were the canonical story. You say you're reading reviews; do you see primary sources? Camera shots of pages, maybe? Even if it is in the book, I wonder if such a section is meant to be from an unreliable narrator.

Now, I do find it plausible that the hags might have had a hand in creating the yugoloths -- I'm not tied to the story in, what is it, Faces of Evil? I don't think I own that book. The hags seem weak, but somehow they manage to know a ton of things, and they always seem to be lurking around the back of stories about evil in the Lower Planes. I've found myself fond of the idea that somehow they cultivate a very specific sort of weakness in order to be able to advance some dark ideal of evil that involves doing no good to anyone, even yourself.

But Asmodeus? Not at all.

elderbrain
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As I recall, didn't an old

As I recall, didn't an old issue of Dragon magazine establish that Night hags had the power to promote 'Loths into more powerful forms - Altroloths? That could explain the hag angle... why could Night hags do that? (Pretty sure that was a Planescape article, as it mentioned Charon and gave his real name, Cerlic.)

sciborg2
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I really dislike any of the

I really dislike any of the Evils being the "True Evil". That said the Baern and Asmodeus were both pretty awesome, just making either the face behind the other evil alignments in canon doesn't sit well with me.

Quickleaf
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elderbrain wrote:As I recall,

elderbrain wrote:
As I recall, didn't an old issue of Dragon magazine establish that Night hags had the power to promote 'Loths into more powerful forms - Altroloths? That could explain the hag angle... why could Night hags do that? (Pretty sure that was a Planescape article, as it mentioned Charon and gave his real name, Cerlic.)

Huh. I don't know which one you're talking about. I checked the Planescape Collector's Guide listing of Dragon/Dungeon articles and nothing popped out with "Yugoloth" or "night hag" or something similar in the title... Maybe you can pick it out from this list?

Dragon Magazine
Dragon 203, p74, The Plane Truth Part I: Codifying Sigil (March 1994)
Dragon 204, p28, The Plane Truth Part II: A Journey To the Outlands (April 1994)
Dragon 205, p50, The Plane Truth Part III: The Transformation (May 1994)
Dragon 207, p50, Role-Playing Reviews (July 1994)
Dragon 208, p42, Behind the Scenes: The Making of the Planescape Setting (August 1994)
Dragon 208, p107, Sage Advice (August 1994)
Dragon 209, p82, Sage Advice (September 1994)
Dragon 210, p96, Sage Advice (October 1994)
Dragon 211, p88, Role-Playing Reviews (November 1994)
Dragon 211, p95, Sage Advice (November 1994)
Dragon 213, p10, Godsmen, Bleakers, Guvners, & Takers (January 1995)
Dragon 213, p32, Planar Personalities (January 1995)
Dragon 214, p34, Role-Playing Reviews (February 1995)
Dragon 215, p88, Sage Advice (March 1995)
Dragon 215, p97, The Game Wizards (March 1995)
Dragon 216, p22, April Fool's Faxions (April 1995)
Dragon 216, p103, Sage Advice (April 1995)
Dragon 217, p82, Sage Advice (May 1995)
Dragon 218, p39, The Game Wizards: Flashpoint Sigil! (June 1995)
Dragon 218, p82, Role-Playing Reviews (June 1995)
Dragon 218, p97, Sage Advice (June 1995)
Dragon 221, p100, Sage Advice (September 1995)
Dragon 221, p112, The Game Wizards (September 1995)
Dragon 223, p10, The Lords of the Nine (November 1995)
Dragon 227, p73, Blood Wars Tactics for Two: The Official Two-Player Rules Supplement (March 1996)
Dragon 229, p108, Role-Playing Reviews (May 1996)
Dragon 230, p93, Sage Advice (June 1996)
Dragon 233, p24, Fiendish Fortresses (September 1996)
Dragon 233, p92, The Rod of Seven Parts: World by World (September 1996)
Dragon 234, p109, Role-Playing Reviews (October 1996)
Dragon 235, p8, Planar Heroes (November 1996)
Dragon Annual 1, p75, A Handful of Keys (November 1996)
Dragon 236, p108, Role-Playing Reviews (December 1996)
Dragon 240, p56, Mysteries of the Dead Gods (October 1997)
Dragon 241, p56, Modron Magic (November 1997)
Dragon Annual 2, Pox of the Planes (November 1997)
Dragon 243, p26, Destriers of the Planes (January 1998)
Dragon 245, p16, Sage Advice (March 1998)
Dragon 245, p70, Bazaar of the Bizarre: Dwarven Relics (March 1998)
Dragon 246, p108, Roleplaying Reviews (April 1998)
Dragon Annual 3, Planar Pestilence (November 1998)
Dragon 262, p82, Dragon's Bestiary: Creatures of Torment (August 1999)
Dragon 264, p74, Rogue's Gallery: Planescape Torment (October 1999)
Dragon 265, p22, Sage Advice (November 1999)
Dragon 270, p118, Silicon Sorcery: Tormenting Your PCs (April 2000)
Dragon 287, p44, Fractious Factions: Planar Prestige Classes (September 2001)
Dragon 305, p28, Cities of the Planes: N'gati (March 2003)
Dragon 315, p44, The Exiled Factions (January 2004)
Dragon 339, p32, Dead Factions (January 2006)
Dragon 347, p28, Archomentals (September 2006)
Dragon 347, p42, Elemental Hazards (September 2006)
Dragon 347, p54, Paraelementals (September 2006)
Dragon 347, p66, Ecology of the Elemental Weird (September 2006)
Dragon 351, p50, The Gatetown of Ecstasy (January 2007)
Dragon 353, p36, Multiple Dementia (March 2007)
Dragon 353, p42, Archomentals (March 2007)
Dragon 353, p52, Ecology of the Keepers (March 2007)
Dragon 354, p34, Return of the Modrons (April 2007)
Dragon 359, p26, Unsolved Mysteries of D&D (September 2007)
Dragon 414, Bazaar of the Bizarre: From the Attic of Alluvius Ruskin (August 2012)
Dragon 414, The Ecology of the Modron (August 2012)
Dragon 414, History Check: The Iggwilv-Graz'zt Affair (August 2012)
Dragon 414, Character Themes: Ciphers, Sensates, and Xaositects (August 2012)
Dragon 417, p4, History Check: The Blood War (November 2012)
Dragon 417, p11, History Check: That Shadow That Was (November 2012)
Dragon 417, p16, Fallen Angels: Ecology of the Succubus (November 2012)
Dragon 419, p22, Winning Races: Bladelings (January 2013)
Dragon 421, p4, Creature Incarnations: Mephits (March 2013)
Dragon 421, p10, Lords of Chaos: Cryonax (March 2013)
Dragon 427, p17, Codex of Betrayal: Levistus (September 2013)
Dragon 428, p23, Codex of Betrayal: Amon the Wolf (October 2013)

Dungeon Magazine
Dungeon 55, p18, Umbra (September 1995)
Dungeon 60, p32, Nemesis (July 1996)
Dungeon 205, The Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Shemeshka the Marauder (August 2012)
Dungeon 208, p43, Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Fraz-Urb'luu, Prince of Deception (November 2012)
Dungeon 212, p15, Court of the Dark Prince (March 2013)

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showwiki.php?title=Planescape-Collectors-Guide#Magazine-articles#ixzz3Dpp59SbX

Karsus
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Quote:Huh. I don't know which

Quote:
Huh. I don't know which one you're talking about. I checked the Planescape Collector's Guide listing of Dragon/Dungeon articles and nothing popped out with "Yugoloth" or "night hag" or something similar in the title... Maybe you can pick it out from this list?

They talk about that in Dragon Annual 2, Pox of the Planes. Pretty sure that's the issue in question.
Unsung
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...

Shemeska has a brief summary here: http://mimir.planewalker.com/forum/altroloths#comment-9680

And then there's this (third post down, tl;dr there's more after the Macbeth spoof):
http://community.wizards.com/forum/other-published-worlds/threads/952401

Boil it down (sorry) and the idea seems to be that altroloths are specifically selected to embody War, Pestilence, Famine, and Death. Which could be interesting if you want to bring the daemons and Four Horsemen from Pathfinder into the Great Wheel. Curious too if it was the night hags that ushered in a grand, multiverse-wide apocalypse. Appropriate to medieval eschatology, though.

elderbrain
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Apparently the MM just says

Apparently the MM just says that the belief that Asmodeus created the 'Loths is a commonly-held theory (perhaps on the Prime?), and is not "gospel". Oh, and it looks like Zariel got loose and displaced Bel as Lord of the First layer of Baator. (I have read that there is a chart in the MM listing the layers of Baator with their current rulers... and including a list of PAST rulers of each layer!)

Rolro
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Also slaadi created by Primus

Also slaadi created by Primus

elderbrain
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Yes, but not intentionally!

Yes, but not intentionally! Apparently, Primus found what would become the Slaadi Spawning Stone in Mechanus, didn't like it (perhaps it radiated chaos?), and threw it into Limbo, whereupon it produced the Slaadi. Also, the entry on Solars has gone back to 1e lore, and asserts that there are only 24 of them in existence (at one time, or total?)

Jem
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Heh.

So that means that some slaadi might decide (of course, they might have anyway, they're slaadi, but in this case several of them might) to worship Primus as their creator.

(Slaad 1) "InStRuCt Us, DiViNe OnE!"

(Primus) GO AWAY

(Slaad 1) "wE gO!"

(Slaad 2) "I like this religion. Simple. Short sermons."

Unsung
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..

Jem said:

(Slaad 1) "InStRuCt Us, DiViNe OnE!"

(Primus) GO AWAY

(Slaad 1) "wE gO!"

(Slaad 2) "I like this religion. Simple. Short sermons."

Fantastic.